updated 2005-11-29. (minor syntax updates 2009-09-16).


latest information (related periodicals):

David also maintains related files:


ChristLib is the libertarian Christian mailing list.

This page is not the Official ChristLib Homepage, because there is no Official ChristLib Homepage. [ Bill Reveile ] [ Previous ChristLib Page ][ Next ChristLib Page ] [ The One After That: (offline ?) ] . If you think you can make a better page than this, go for it -- and let me know so I can add you to the ring of ChristLib Pages:

list archives:

There is a fascinating mix of people on the list. There are libertarians who are not Christian (e.g., Jewish, athiest) and Christians who are not libertarian (e.g., Republican, Democratic, and the occasional anarchist). There's a few DNRC and Goth, but I'm still not certain if Dilbert's New Ruling Class (or the Goth culture) is more politics or religion, or something completely different. There are some people who claim it is impossible to be Christian and libertarian simultaneously. There are other people who claim that if one is "truly Christian", one will inevitably be led to something very close to the libertarian political viewpoint.

The people on ChristLib generally have a lot of sympathy for the underdog and alternative points of view. The people who claim that "One man *can* make a difference". The poor deluded fools :-P.

While religion and politics are often a volatile mix, the people on Christlib are surprisingly good at maintaining a sense of humor and balance while discussing God and Country.

I (David Cary) am human, therefore not merely opinionated and biased but often just plain wrong. Please tell me feedback.html how I could improve this page if you think the layout and the content could be improved, especially if something is misleading or (horrors!) actually in error.

"I am interested in how things really work, whether I like it or not." -- Dar Scott <dsc at> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:38:14 -0600

Here's the general information for the list:

[Last updated on: Mon Jan 19 18:02:30 1998]
Welcome to Christlib, the email list for the discussion of topics that are,
in some way, both Christian and libertarian.

Both libertarians and Christians are welcome and especially Christian
libertarians are welcome.

The list was created by Bruce Baugh, who managed it for over three years.
Bruce likened it to his living room and he expected his quests to treat
each other politely.

I intend to carry on that tradition.  Each subscriber is here as my guest
and I desire each one to feel comfortable on this list.  I encourage
subscribers to debate ideas as appropriate, but to never attack another
subscriber.  I (Dar Scott ) will normally send a gentle
warning at first but may have to boot repeat offenders.  (Should _I_ ever
be rude to a subscriber, please wake me up by sending me a note.)

What is Christian libertarianism?  Is it real?  Is it Biblical?  Many of us
have some opinions on this, of course, but this list as a discussion list
makes no assumptions.

You do not have to belong to any particular school of thought to belong to
this list and to be a participant.  And, though members of the list might
favor some school of thought, this list is not some hook for some
particular brand of Christian libertarianism.

I have found some friends on this list; you might find friends, also.

This list is open.  To join, simply send mail from your email address to
<> with this in the body:

subscribe christlib

As a member you can participate.  To send mail to everyone on the list,
send mail to <>.  Or simply reply to mail from the list.

You can leave the list anytime.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
<> from your email address with this body:

unsubscribe christlib

Should you ever unsubscribe, I welcome comments on why.

There is no web-site for Christlib yet; hang onto this information.

God Bless,
Dar Scott =CL=
Christlib list manager

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:27:44 -0700
To: christlib at
From: Dar Scott 
Subject: Christlib: We're Transferred!!
Sender: owner-christlib at

If I did everything right, then the list is transferred.

As you may have noticed in the "Welcome" message, the list policy is
basically the same.  The topic is that which has something to do with
libertarianism and with Christianity.  The mood is polite.

If I set this up right, replying to this message (or any other from the
list) will be sending a message to the list.

(Sorry about the double of the last message on the old list.  I think I
accidentally sent a message that included key words that triggered an
automatic approval requirement.  And then I was too impatient to wait for
Bruce's approval.)

You will receive a schedule by separate mail showing which weeks you are to
send chocolate to the list manager.  Just Kidding!  :)


Dar Scott  +CL+

+ Christlib list manager +
Christlib is the discussion list for topics
covering Christianity and libertarianism
From: "Bruce Baugh" 
To: <christlib at>
Subject: Re: Christlib: Finding Christlib
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:08:46 -0800
Reply-To: christlib at

From: Dar Scott 

>However, at this time, I do not have an official Christlib page.

Obviously we need a free and competitive market in Christlib pages.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:23:43 -0700
To: christlib at
From: Dar Scott <dsc at>
Subject: Re: Christlib: Finding Christlib

Bruce Baugh wrote,
>>However, at this time, I do not have an official Christlib page.
>Obviously we need a free and competitive market in Christlib pages.

That's a great idea!

(Psst!!  Bruce!  What if they want a share of the chocolate?)

Attention everybody making Christlib pages!  You'll get your chocolate in

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 21:15:42 -0700
To: christlib at
From: Dar Scott <dsc at>
Subject: Christlib: List Subject Policy

For the most part, there are no taboo subjects.  In particular,
homosexuality and abortion are NOT taboo topics.

Some topics are just plain off subject, but brief excursions into these are
OK.  A lot of these are great fun.

Some topics, by nature, are generally offensive and thus prohibited, even
if one makes an excuse to applicability to the list topics.

Hammer home those ideas of yours, but please do not attack others on the
list.  Please show general consideration.  As part of this general
consideration, please avoid offensive language.  Overall, remember others
are fellow guests in my living room.

If I feel I need to, I will squelch any topic.  I don't think this will be
needed too often; those who come visit will tend to be those who use
self-control and are learning self-government.

Here are some ideas to consider when framing mail, especially mail on
sensitive subjects.  Take care to criticize ideas, not the person you are
debating with.  Keep a thick skin, even when some ideas seem to hit home.
Avoid making pot-shots.  Avoid introducing sensitive subjects when a
sensitive debate is already in progress.  Review the subject line for
sensitive subjects; some people might want to avoid them.  Show leadership
in how you compose mail during sensitive debates.  If someone has to bow
out of a debate, remember this person may have had to leave before
completely communicating his ideas.  Be patient with those who take the
time to advise a newbie or an old friend in these things.  Sometimes a
topic has been beaten into the ground and should get a rest.  Be patient
with the list manager; God is still building him.

OK!!  Go for it!  Have fun!  E-sodas are in the E-fridge!


Dar Scott  +CL+
dsc at

+ Christlib list manager +
Christlib is the discussion list for topics
covering Christianity and libertarianism
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:01:02 -0700
To: christlib at
From: Dar Scott <dsc at>
Subject: Christlib: List Diversity

Some of you may have noticed a slightly rough spot in the "Faith"
discussion.  Overall, I am pleased at how this did not escalate and how the
discussion repaired itself. Of course, it may seem more damaging to those
actually involved.  Everybody is in A-OK status as list participants.
Everybody involved seems to care about the list.

Some questions came up and some may have been implied that I'll address
with some comments on list diversity.  Christlib is diverse in subscribers,
discussion styles and discussion topics.

Christlib is open to those not Christian and those not libertarian.  In
particular, there are atheists on the list.  Though the list is a dear
place for Christian libertarian fellowship, it is not closed to only CLs.
(This avoids the question of who is qualified, and also keeps CLs from
getting brain flabby.)  There might be those on the list who are neither
Christian nor libertarian, but I have no idea why they are not bored with
the discussion.  My mentioning the diversity does not mean that certain
subjects should be avoided or that subjects of primary interest to a
particular group need elaborate qualification.  I just wish to arm you in
keeping your discussion polite.

Writing styles are diverse and this may require some patience.  Some people
are just different from you and some of us are still abecedarians in
forming ideas and writing about them.  Just because someone quotes
scripture does not mean he is quoting it AT you as one might throw bricks.
Just because one says he does not understand what you wrote does not mean
he is calling you a snob or is complaining about your use of topic jargon.
Just because some discussion seems to be intramural among CLs does not mean
you are being shunted out.  And if one makes a technical error about some
group, it does not mean that he feels the truth about that group is
unimportant.  You are always free to ask for clarification or to ignore the

A wide range of topics are appropriate for the list.  They just need to
somehow apply to both Christianity and libertarianism.  However, excursions
outside this into areas of Christianity or libertarianism are just fine and
even needed.  I think it puts a damper on discussion to know there is a
cliff one might fall over.  And a lot of these diversions are fun.  And a
loop outside of scope often brings the topic to a point ON-topic that might
not otherwise come up.  Also, for me, I find I very much value the opinions
of those on this list and how else can one get them on a slightly off-topic
question except to ask?

Back to the show currently in progress...

Dar Scott
List Mom

Dar Scott  +CL+
dsc at

+ Christlib list manager +
Christlib is the discussion list for topics
covering Christianity and libertarianism

interesting people

Interesting people who are not on ChristLib yet (but we wish they were !) include, but are not limited to, in random order, [FIXME: how should I organize this ?]


In 1998-08-31, Dar Scott proposed a reading schedule so that we could intelligently discuss these books while they were fresh in our minds. I guess it was a slow month and Dar wanted to stir up some controversy ^H^H^H^H^H intelligent discussion.

I thought his 2 track idea, "Bible" and "non-Bible", was pretty clever. His initial suggestions were

Others suggested that these books were also somehow related to "Christian and libertarian" topics. [Please post to the list any suggestions you might have; please email me if I've missed suggestions that have been posted]

Home pages of some of the listmembers

If you are not listed and you want to be, or you are listed but you don't want to be, send me email and I'll try to straighten things out ASAP.

slavery and its abolition



technology and politics

religion and technology

urban legend

urban legends somehow related to "Christianity and libertarianism".

π (pi)

pi and the Bible

The bill to define pi as 3.0 is a "Net Hoax on Pi Just Won't Die" .

``The Bible and Pi'' article by Michael A. B. Deakin and Hans Lausch, in _The Mathematical Gazette_ July 1998 Volume 82 Number 494 claims that one could take the original text and derive the value 3*(111/106) which is close to the true value of pi. It also points out that 355/113 is a far more accurate approximation to pi.

other π stuff

The mathematical constant known as π (pi). pi (See si_metric_faq.html#micro for the Greek letter π )

*converging* formulas for π: rather than going summing up a bunch of terms (*all* of which must be calculated to the desired precision), what sorts of formulas can take a (noisy) *approximation* of π and give a *better* approximation of π ? (... perhaps expand to allow *2* numbers, one converging on π, the other converging on some other arbitrary constant, and allow 2 functions to update both).

  • Does Archimede's formula converge if a bit of error gets mixed in near the beginning ? No, it doesn't look like it.
  • π_{n+1} = Ln( 20 + π_{n} ) converges on 3.1416333 (adapted from Simon Plouffe )
  • (J. Munkhammer, 2000 )
  • Starting with any approximation of π:

    a(k+1) = a(k) + sin(a(k)) ; starting with a(0) anywhere near π, perhaps a(0) = 22/7.
    a(k+1) = a(k) - tan(a(k)) ; starting with a(0) anywhere near π, perhaps a(0) = 22/7.

    "the rate of convergence is now cubic (the number of digits is tripled at each iteration). ... The major drawback of those algorithms is to evaluate sine or tangent function at a given accuracy which is not so easy."


    (DAV: remember ... sin[x] = x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - x^7/7! + +x^8/8! ... Sum{ n=0; &inf;; (-1)^n * x^(2*n+1) /( 2*n+1 )! } )

    DAV: I have generalized this to any arbitrary angle ... In addition to the sin() and tan() equations above, I find

    a_k+1 = a_k + cos( a_k ) ; converges on π/2

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 2*sin(a_k) - sqrt(3) ) ; converges on π/3

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 1 - 2*cos( a_k ) )/sqrt(3) ; converges on π/3

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( tan( a_k ) - sqrt(3) )/4 ; converges on π/3

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( sqrt(2)*sin( a_k ) - 1 ) ; converges on π/4

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 1 - sqrt(2)*cos( a_k ) ) ; converges on π/4

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( tan( a_k) - 1 )/2 ; converges on π/4

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 2*sin( a_k ) - 1 )/sqrt(3) ; converges on π/6

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( sqrt(3) - 2*cos( a_k ) ) ; converges on π/6

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( tan( a_k ) - 1/sqrt(3) )*(3/4) ; converges on π/6

    These equations all come from the basic formula

    a_k+1 = a_k - ε.

    Near some arbitrary angle θ, in particular at the angle a_k = ( θ + ε ), the series expansions for sin( θ + ε ), cos( θ + ε ), tan( θ + ε ) (should I try other functions like 1/cos(), 1/sin(), 1/tan() ?) give us the approximations

    ε =~= ( sin( θ + ε ) - sin( θ ) )/ cos( θ ) ε =~= ( cos( θ ) - cos( θ + ε ) )/sin( θ ) ε =~= ( tan( θ + ε ) - tan( θ ) )*( cos( θ ) )^2.

    Then I just pick θ to make these formulas come out nice.

    A cubically converging algorithm which converges to the nearest multiple of π to f_0 is the simple iteration

    f_{n+1} = f_n + sin( f_n )

    (Beeler et al. 1972). For example, applying to 23 gives the sequence 23, 22.1537796, 21.99186453, 21.99114858, ..., which converges to 7π ~=~ 21.99114858.

  • Other converging formulas:

    The π expert is, of course, the famous Eve Astrid Andersson /* was */ .

    More than you ever wanted to know about pi: .

    Re: Converting Pi to binary (DON'T DO IT!)

    "For this particular planet, construct a perfect circle with a radius of 2075 miles, and measure the circumference. You will find that pi = 3.0." -- Dave Fischer, (Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95) (Newsgroups: sci.physics)

    Other hoaxes

    Other hoaxes: periodical.html#anti_chain_letter

    the "cultist" urban legend

    The quote below is merely a urban legend.

    From: "John Fast" <jfast at>
    To: christlib at
    Subject: Christlib: web: Is Janet Reno a Cultist?
    Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:29:10 -0400
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dave Babbitt <dave at>
    Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 7:23 AM
    Subject: Re: Christlib: Fwd: Are you a cultist?
    >Not to quench the spirit of anti-christian bigotry that Janet Reno is
    >trying to develop here, but a cultist can be either religious or political
    >and are defined by there practice of twisting the definitions of words to
    >the point of equivication.
    >>"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and
    >>the Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible
    >>studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a
    >>Christian cause; who home schools for their children; who
    >>has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in
    >>the second amendment; and who distrusts big government.
    >>Any of these may qualify [a person as a cultist] but
    >>certainly  more than one [of these] would cause us to look
    >>at this person as a threat, and his family as being in a
    >>risk situation that qualified for government interference."
    >>--Attorney General Janet Reno, Interview on 60 Minutes,
    >>  June 26, 1994 (quote reprinted from the May/June issue
    >>  of the Arizona Home Education Journal)
    >>--------- End forwarded message ----------
    >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
    >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
    >>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
    >Dave Babbitt
    >Check out
    From: "John Fast" 
    To: , , 
    Subject: Re: Calumny of Janet Reno (was Christlib: Fwd: Are you a cultist?)
    Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:22:48 -0400
    Marshall Fritz  wrote:
    >This is a false quote. It is calumny
    >to spread it around. She did not
    >say this. She was not on 60 Minutes
    >on that day.
    Ouch!!  Thanks!!
    >Please advise each person to whom you
    >have sent this that you have heard a
    >warning of its falseness, and
    >encourage them to stop
    >spreading this unless
    >they get solid con-
    >firmation. (Which
    >they will not
    >find. Only
    >copies of the same thing, none of which
    >really documented, they just look that
    Yes, definitely!  Thanks again!
    >Pith:  I didn't give them hell. I just
    >told them the truth and they thought it
    >was hell.
    >            Harry S Truman
    And, unfortunately, we must stick to the
    truth, even when it's unpleasant as hell. :-(
    Still, I'm sure there are enough true
    unpleasant things to say about Ms. Reno;
    certainly her performance as a U.S. Attorney
    here in Florida was disgusting, especially
    the "Country Walk" false child-abuse
     John Fast
     jfast at  or  caliban at
     "Raise consciousness, not taxes."
    Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:49:41 -0400
    From: "Doug Snead" 
    Subject: Re: Calumny of Janet Reno (was Christlib: Fwd: Are you a cultist?)
    John Fast wrote:
    > Marshall Fritz  wrote:
    > >John...
    > >This is a false quote. It is calumny
    > >to spread it around. She did not
    > >say this. She was not on 60 Minutes
    > >on that day.
    > Ouch!!  Thanks!!
    [ ... snip ...]
    I'm not so sure that the Justive Department denials are completely
    believeable.  For many, the issue is not yet settled.
      For example, see
       "Several individuals who called 60 Minutes to obtain a copy of
       the Reno interview were told that 60 Minutes had never done an
       interview with Janet Reno. One gentleman reported to us that
       when he contacted a company that sells video copies of 60 Minutes
       and other news shows, they became very "heated" after the
       requested June 26,1994 show."
    What I am saying is that I believe the denials even less that I do the
    reality of that quote.   For many people, the case is *far* from closed.
    - Doug
    [ a word from Reno to your kids: ]
    From: "Keith A. Keller" 
    Subject: Christlib: Janet Reno
    Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:13:22 -0400 (EDT)
    According to Allen J. Newton:
    > Didn't Janet Reno define a "Dangerous Religious Fanatic" a few years ago
    > as anyone who owns a gun and believes that the Bible is the Word of God?
    We discussed this on the list several months ago, and, if I
    recall correctly, came to the conclusion that that quote could
    not be confirmed.
    Someone posted a URL linking to a web page looking into the
    matter and trying to get a copy of the televised interview in
    which she allegedly said that.  But "60 Minutes" denied that
    she ever said such a thing in an interview with them, and
    wasn't even in the episode which was broadcast on the date in
    Keith Keller I  <kak4b at>
    The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water
    and breeds Reptiles of the Mind.
    	--William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"

    related links:

    alternative voting systems

    Some pointers to alternative voting systems

    [FIXME: where did I put that info ?]

    Arrow's theorem ...

    Arrow impossibility theorem

    [FIXME: get better definition][arrow]


    not-so-common terms

    "Christian libertarian"
    "One who is libertarian and is Christian and nothing more." -- [Hardrock ?] "there is a major and important subset of people who are Christian libertarians who find their thinking integrated in special ways." -- Dar Scott
    Nation vs. State
    WSPQ: World's Smallest Political Quiz | (was: ) | [offline ?] is a clever little idea that fits on a business card.

    Take the World's Smallest Political Quiz

    ``Libertarians thus have a big stake in seeing a more accurate map accepted. But that doesn't mean the map is therefore inaccurate.'' DAV is fascinated by ``maps'' 3d_design.html#maps that let you see things more accurately. I find it amazing and counter-intuitive that most people (including myself), when confronted by a map that is truly more accurate than ones they've seen before, instantly feel that this ``new'' map is inaccurate, suspect, some sort of trick, etc. Why is this ? And what can cartographers do to indicate uncertainty and to guide people towards more appropriate maps ?

    ... seems similar to "The Political Compass" ... see also "The Lipson-Shiu Corporate Type Test" mad_science.html#lipson-shiu and MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) book.html#mbti

    opportunity for growth.
    a learning experience.
    the Ionian Enchantment
    "a belief in the unity of the sciences -- a conviction, far deeper than a mere working proposition, that the world is orderly and can be explained by a small number of natural laws. ... Its roots go back to Thales of Miletus, in Ionia, in the sixth century b.c. ... has dominated scientific thought ever since. " -- Edward O. Wilson (paraphrasing Gerald Holton)
    (1) One who attacks and seeks to overthrow traditional or popular ideas or institutions.
    (2) One who destroys sacred religious images.
    from the Greek hoplon = tool or weapon + phobe = fear.
    libertarian (as opposed to Libertarian)
    Libertarian (as opposed to libertarian)
    "Anarchy is the *absence* of criminal activity." -- Randall R Randall (rrandall6 at Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998
    Let's let the anarchists themselves tell us what they are about:
    Anarchism . Web Site
    An Anarchist FAQ (obviously there can be no "official" anarchist FAQ)
    Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:46:52 -0600
    To: christlib at
    From: Dar Scott <dsc at>
    Subject: Re: Christlib: What is defense?
    Hardrock wrote,
    >min(im)-		least, smallest, least quantity, very small
    >			(L. minimus)
    >arch(y)			government, rule (Gk. archia)
    >-ist			one who performs a (specified) action; one who
    >			makes or produces; one who plays or operates a
    >			specified instrument or contrivance; one who
    >			specializes in a (specified) art or science or
    >			skill; one who advocates or adheres to a doctrine
    >			or system or code of behaviour, or that of a
    >			(specified) individual (Gk. istes)
    >so, using the basic rules of lexicography, and not filtering through any
    >particular agenda, the correct, in context definition of "minarchy" is
    >"one who advocates very small, or the least quantity of, government".
    I think that is the first parsing that Randall give.  He used the word
    "state" instead of "government."
    Is this lexicography or morphology?  In either case, it is not always clear
    concerning the order of combining morphemes.  Consider "biweekly."
    In context, it may well be that the second (no doubt, tongue-in-cheek)
    parsing has some merit.  Sigh.
    >> Sir, if you do not say what you mean, how
    >> am I to understand you?  I can only assume
    >> that you think carefully about what you type.
    >an assumption which is rarely justified.
    This may well be our best first assumption in discussion.
    On the other hand, just because someone slips and exposes himself, is no
    reason to let go with a ten page message destroying that person or that
    misstated idea.  I think I may be tempted in this area; perhaps it is an
    indication of low self-esteeme when one has to blast away at errors that
    might be easily rectified quickly.
    On Christlib, it is not a matter of gaining points by machine-gunning
    exposed parts of other high scorers.  We work together to build ideas.
    THEN WE SHOOT DOWN THE IDEAS!!   Aaaa Ha Ha Ha!!!!
    Dar Scott
    Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 09:06:30 -0700
    From: Bill Reveile <mvv at>
    Subject: Re: Christlib: What is defense?
    At 01:33 AM 1998/07/03 -0700, you wrote:
    >to me, i see a minimum based on harm done.  possibly with a punitive
    >amount of some sort.  additional punishents based on demonstrated intent.
    >perhaps with the assumption that intent to harm is present.
    I have never been able to find a basis for punishment of humans by other
    humans.  Just like I have never been able to justify reparations based on
    intent.  Harm done, however, does include all expenses incurred by anyone
    involved in the investigation, apprehension, pretrial incarceration, trial
    and subsequent incarceration, and monitoring of reparations connected to
    the crime.
    >> You see, I would allow the victim to lessen
    >> the criminal's punishment, but not the judge
    >> or the jury (if any).  Any other punishments
    If the victim or anyone else chooses to absorb some of the damages based on
    lack of intent that is their choice.  A judgement of intent would also be
    helpful to determine the percentage of responsibility but never to
    calculate punitive damages.
    >the jury would exist to determine intent from available evidence; pretty
    >much for additional punishments to the perpetrator, as i listed before.
    The plaintiff and defendant would arrive on an agreement of how a trial
    would proceed.  This would decide whether or not it would be a volunteer or
    paid jury, a judge, an arbitrator, an unsupervised negotiation or
    flintlocks at twenty paces.
    "Defense" is the act of countering in kind any initiation of force to
    protect oneself or certain others from harm.
    "In kind" means using enough force to stop the unwanted action but not
    enough to cause unnecessary harm to the initiator of that unwanted action.
    "Force" means to cause another to change their just behavior against their
    "Just behavior" is behavior in which all can engage without violating the
    equal rights of others.
    "Rights" are claims to which one can reasonably expect all others to yield
    based on a consensus that all people have equal opportunity to make the
    same claims.
    "certain others"
    I'll have to get back to you later on these.
    -- Bill Reveile Scarecrow Logic
    ??? Christlib ??? [FIXME:]
    "government of a state by immediate divine guidance"; "rule by God". We reserve _theocracy_ to mean "rule by God" in writing, but some readers may think this means some elite deciding what God says (a hierocracy). To reduce misinterpretation, we might say "theocracy, reign of God," or similar introductory phrases.

    "If we are looking through our "stateness" meter or some like limited view, God's speakng directly to individuals is indistiguishable from anarchy. But, if God is consistent in what He is saying to people (an assumption I'll accept), then one would see an emergent pattern of behavior in an theocracy that would not develop in [a non-theocratic] anarchy. ... So, I think the same society can be called an anarchy and a theocracy at the same time. I think the Bible does that with the time of the Judges. "

    -- Dar Scott , Fri, 3 Jul 1998
    "The rule of priests or religious dignitaries; government by priests or ecclesiastics." (OED)
    governed by God
    "A Looneytarian is someone who believes that liberty implies libertinism and license, such as with the absurd proposition that your neighbor is perfectly free to keep a nuclear weapon in his basement if he wants." -- "R. Knauer-AIMNET" < rcktexas at > 1998-06-29
    Short for "Christian Reconstructionists" (CR).
    the War Of Northern Aggression
    What the gentleman from Texas calls the Civil War of the United States of America.
    To strive for increased personal freedom, freedom from death, freedom from ignorance, freedom from our heirachical structures, freedom from our genetic limitations, freedom from missguided attempts to repress, cajole, tax, or otherwise limit our self expression, exploration, or modification, freedom from the bonds of planet Earth and its solar system.
    -- Mike Lorrey < retroman at >, 1996-07-04, posted to Transhuman Mailing List < transhuman at >
    from ploutos (wealth) + kratein (to rule). government by the wealthy.
    One who claims to be liberal. OR
    One who forces other people to spend their money the ``right'' way. (typically by collecting taxes and sending them to the ``right'' other people).
    One who claims to be conservative. OR
    One who forces other people to act the ``right'' way. (Typically by jail terms mandated by new laws related to the military draft, the war on drugs, inappropriate ``speech'', etc.)
    from ornith (bird) + kratia (government). "As a democrat, I believed that government was for the people, but living in Washington [DC] has turned me into an ornithocrat." -- from
    Person In Government

    Any other words I should list here ? In particular, I want

    and, of course their definition(s).


    From: "John Fast" 
    Subject: Re: Christlib: New Christlib Catalog
    Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:33:29 -0500
    The Christlib[tm] merchandising department wrote:
    >Proud to me subscribed to Christlib?  Now you can show it!!
    >Special items available today only!!
    >=== Jewelry ===
    > ChristLib Nose Ring.  Spells out Christlib.   $55
    > CL Tongue Pin.  Interlocking CL design.       $45
    > Fish Anarchy Lip Pin.  Unique!!               $45
    They apparently forgot:
    _Libere_ Crucifix (diagonal arrow behind cross).
    Let 'em know Our Lord was a political non-Euclidean.  $55
    Nolan Chart Crucifix.    $65
    14K Rosary    $25
    >=== Sweaters and T-shirts ===
    >Sizes:  XL, XXL, XXXL and XXXXL
    >Based on the famous Christlib cartoons!!
    > Yackity-Yak!! (black or white) T $20 Sweatshirt $30
    > Bruce's Living Room (red or white) T $25 Sweatshirt $40
    > Pretty Good Commission (white only) T $20   Sweatshirt $30
    > How a Statist Sees Rapture (red only) T $20   Sweatshirt $30
    > TEAM CHRISTLIB (black, red or white) T $25   Sweatshirt $40
    He Didn't Die for the State (red or black) T $20  Sweatshirt $30
    My Church Isn't BATF-Approved (white or black) T $20 Sweatshirt $30
    Free Thought, Free Will, Free Men (black or white) T $20
    Sweatshirt $30.  (autographed, white only, add $10)
    St. Clive (red, white, or black) T $30  Sweatshirt $45
    (autographed, red or white, add $10)
    All Men Are Created Equal Except One (black or white) T $20  Sweatshirt $30
    Render Unto Washington (red or black)  T $25  Sweatshirt $35
    Atlas Shrugged, Jesus Wept (black or white)  T $25  Sweatshirt $35
    Pulp Scripture (red or black)  T $30  Sweatshirt $40
    Pulp Scripture limited edition (gold leaf, signed and numbered)  T $50
    Sweatshirt $60
    Soul in Training/Property of God's Gym (white or black)  T $25  Sweatshirt
    >=== St. Bruce Keepsakes ===
    > Sliver from the wooden handle of the lawn rake
    > he left behind in Portland.  Comes with certificate.
    > Only 400 pieces. $100
    > Copy of the first game St. Bruce ever wrote.  Make
    > C's and L's chase other letters around a maze.
    > CPM (8" floppy) $125
    > DOS (5.25" floppy) $105
    >All profits go to sending chocolate to the list mom and to builders of
    >Christlib web pages.

    From: "Christlib Catalog Sales" < catalog at >
    To: <christlib at>
    Subject: Christlib: New Christlib Catalog
    Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:26:24 -0300
    Precedence: bulk
    Proud to me subscribed to Christlib?  Now you can show it!!
    Special items available today only!!
    === Jewelry ===
    	ChristLib Nose Ring.  Spells out Christlib.   $55
    	CL Tongue Pin.  Interlocking CL design.       $45
    	Fish Anarchy Lip Pin.  Unique!!               $45
    === Sweaters and T-shirts ===
    Sizes:  XL, XXL, XXXL and XXXXL
    Based on the famous Christlib cartoons!!
    	Yackity-Yak!!	(black or white)	T $20	Sweatshirt $30
    	Bruce's Living Room (red or white)	T $25	Sweatshirt $40
    	Pretty Good Commission (white only)	T $20   Sweatshirt $30
    	How a Statist Sees Rapture (red only)	T $20   Sweatshirt $30
    	TEAM CHRISTLIB (black, red or white)	T $25   Sweatshirt $40
    === St. Bruce Keepsakes ===
    	Sliver from the wooden handle of the lawn rake
    	he left behind in Portland.  Comes with certificate.
    	Only 400 pieces.			$100
    	Copy of the first game St. Bruce ever wrote.  Make
    	C's and L's chase other letters around a maze.
    	CPM (8" floppy) 			$125
    	DOS (5.25" floppy)			$105
    All profits go to sending chocolate to the list mom and to builders of
    Christlib web pages.
    From: "Bruce Baugh" < brucebaugh at >
    To: <christlib at>
    Subject: RE: Christlib: New Christlib Catalog
    Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:20:11 -0800
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
    X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
    Reply-To: christlib at
    Color me _vastly_ amused.
    Bruce Baugh

    the beginning

    the end

    Kevin Mitnick

    We've been spending all too much time discussing Kevin Mitnick, "America's Most Wanted Computer Outlaw".

    David Brin

    David Brin

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson

    Donald Knuth

    Donald Knuth [FIXME: move Knuth info from elsewhere to here]

    Joe Wright

    Rev. Joe Wright gave a widely-quoted prayer before the House of Representatives of the Kansas Legislature on January 23, 1996. (I got these links from a internet search for ``prayer "joe wright" kansas''.

    [FIXME: reduce to just 3 or so links]

    ``a government that's big enough...''

    ``a government that's big enough...''

    related to "Ask for what you really want" creed.html#really_want .

    U.S. Constitution

    The U.S. Constitution and other historical documents.

    other historic documents

    Geneva convention

    Geneva convention

    monks online


    the Crusades

    All too often, I hear that "religion" is, like, you know, "bad", because of, you know, "the Crusades, the Inquisition, and stuff.". I'm looking for some good references to the actual facts of the matter.

    unsorted links

    here are some related links, both pro- and anti-.

    misc unsorted

    Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 02:05:59 -0600
    From: Dar Scott 
    Subject: Christlib: ADMIN -- New Info File for Christlib
    Precedence: bulk
    Remember that long "welcome" mail you got when you subscribed to Christlib?
    That contains lots of good list info such as the whole scoop on manners,
    subscribing & unsubscribing, archives, digest, Dar's irritating copyright
    rules, and so on.
    I've made a new one.  Today's changes include info on the archive and the
    digest.  A month or so ago I incorporated stuff from mail I sent to the
    list about copyrights and list diversity.  You can get the latest by
    sending mail to <> with "info christlib" in the body.
    The Info File is also visible at the archive site, but, since there are
    humans in that loop, there can be a delay in that change.
    It is my intent to send a note like this one when I make changes.  Only
    Mr. Dar Scott  +CL+
    + Christlib list manager +
    Christlib is the discussion list for topics
    covering Christianity and libertarianism.
    To subscribe send mail with "subscribe christlib"
    in the body to <>.
    List information is available at the archive site:
    Check out the first contribution to the free
    and competitive market in Christlib pages:
    Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 02:06:27 -0600
    From: Dar Scott 
    Subject: Christlib: ADMIN -- Christlib has a digest
    As an alternative to the regular subscription to Christlib in which you get
    each message one at a time as soon as it is available, you can sub/scribe
    in a way that allows you to receive messages bundled into a few items of
    mail a day.  This alternative is called a digest.
    If you know of anyone who left Christlib because of the mail load, let them
    know about the digest option.
    To subscribe to the digest send mail (from your email client) to
    <> with "subscribe christlib-digest" (sans quotes) in the
    If that looks like the right thing for you then unsub/scribe from the
    regular list to stop the one-at-a-time mail.  Just send mail to
    <> with "unsubscribe christlib" in the body.  If you
    don't like it, unsub/scribe in similar manner to christlib-digest.
    I think a digest subscription can often clean up a mailbox.  With some mail
    clients it can save disk space.  Some people find them easier to browse.
    (I don't.)  I think it can work well for lurkers.
    There is a potential problem that can irritate your fellow Christlibers.
    When you reply to a digest, the "To:" will be set to the right address
    (usually).  The subject will refer to something like "Re: christlib-digest
    V1 #12" not the embedded message you were thinking about.  If you mail
    that, nobody will have any idea what you are talking about.  You should
    copy the embedded subject line and paste it into the subject field.  If
    there is no "Re:", you might want to type that in.  This is all a real pain
    if you send a lot of messages to the list.
    So... Get a marker and write CHANGE CHRISTLIB SUBJECT along the top of your
    monitor.  :)
    The digest looks good.  There are very minor cosmetics in the subject list
    at the front.  And there are probably some things I didn't test.
    Mr. Dar Scott  +CL+
    + Christlib list manager +
    Christlib is the discussion list for topics
    covering Christianity and libertarianism.
    To subscribe send mail with "subscribe christlib"
    in the body to <>.
    List information is available at the archive site:
    Check out the first contribution to the free
    and competitive market in Christlib pages:
 ... Dave Babbitt Check out ... ??? ???

    Date: 5 May 1998 06:52:55 -0000
    From: "Dar Scott" 
    Subject: Re: Christlib: ADMIN -- Archive of Christlib
    The archive is set up.  Look at

    You might have to register.
    (List data is old; I'll fix that later.)
    Mark 4:22
    Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:02:56 -0600
    From: Dar Scott 
    Subject: Christlib: Re: ADMIN -- Archive of Christlib
    The Christlib archive is partially set up.  I think you will need to
    register and to allow cookies to use it.
    It has some problems.  The list info is from several months ago.  The
    address for the list and the subscription address are OLD.  Do not use
    FindMail to post to the list until that is fixed.  Check the majordomo
    address displayed by FindMail before using it to change your subscription.
    Christlib archive is at...

    Some of you got this info earlier and this seems to be redundant.  However,
    not everybody got this info, so I'm making sure that the entire list gets
    this.  Having discovered the address errors, I think this anouncement is
    premature, but since some of you got the data, I figured I oughta be fair
    in premature anouncements.  Still worth playing with; the thread trees are
    pretty smart. not use FindMail to post yet.
    If convenient, hold off a couple days until I get this fixed before making
    links to the above.
    Mr. Dar Scott  +CL+
    + Christlib list manager +
    Christlib is the discussion list for topics
    covering Christianity and libertarianism.
    To get info send mail with "info christlib"
    in the body to <>.
    Or check out the first contribution to the free
    and competitive market in Christlib pages:
    Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:34:36 -0600
    From: Dar Scott 
    Subject: Christlib: ADMIN -- Copyrighted matterial to the list
    Here is list policy in sending articles, news reports, chapters, prefaces,
    similar works or large portions of them.
    This policy is based in part on law and practical issues, in part on the
    notion of avoiding the look of wrong doing and offending those who see
    propriety in written works, and in part as a default respect for creators.
    I am well aware that this policy is probably more conservative than "fair
    use" might be.
    These are listed from the most strict to the wishy-washy.
    1.  If it is copyrighted, get permission.  Otherwise don't send it as a
    whole.  Summarize it and, if appropriate, quote parts as needed.  Show
    copyright notice and permission.
    2.  If it is not copyrighted, but _looks_ like it would be, note in the
    mail how it is not.  If you are not sure, check it out.
    3.  If it is not copyrighted and you'd like to show respect to writers,
    consider getting permission anyway and giving appropriate credit.
    I am _very_ willing to help out in getting permission.  But, then, I'm
    probably at least as lazy as anybody else on the list.  And I'm certainly
    ignorant as to what is involved in getting permission.
    Of course, discussions on copyright and related subjects are open as well
    as those on list policy and even list policy as it applies to the abstract
    Dar Scott
    List Ogre

    Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:09:05 -0600
    From: Dar Scott 
    Subject: Re: Christlib: Re: ADMIN -- Archive of Christlib
    Precedence: bulk
    The Christlib archive is up and looking good.
    There are a couple cosmetic flaws that may never go away.  And the INFO
    FILE display is behind and will probably be behind until they set up a way
    for me to change it myself.  (That means digest info is not there yet.)
    I think FindMail is doing a great job in archiving email lists.  Y'all
    might enjoy using it for other lists, too.  There are some advertising
    banners, but I enjoy the ones I get--I get Albuquerque weather!
    However, we don't want to put all eggs in one basket.  Alternatives would
    be great.  Ideas?
    The URL for the Christlib archive is this:
    It is so good, I think it is one of the competing Christlib pages in the
    free market of Christlib pages.  Bet those guys at FindMail didn't know
    they were in the ring.  The site provides lots of good Christlib info.
    I registered at FindMail some time before the Christlib URL was activated.
    So I don't know what happens when one clicks on the above URL cold.  Let me
    know your experiences.  If that works well, then it could make a good place
    to link to.
    There is an alternate URL without frames:
    That has no frames but does use tables and images.  I'm not sure how well
    that works without previous registration.  You can switch back and forth.
    The site does use cookies (information that it stores in your browser) but
    those are only sent to that site.
    The FindMail people seem to go to an effort to protect you from spam.  If
    you want your mail removed, they can handle that.  If you need to send mail
    to the list that should not be archived (limited permission, for example),
    there is a way to do that.
    They do display a writer profile.  And if you scroll down past the list
    info, you will find some cool stats links including writer stats.  Here you
    will find spelling error profiles, over-quoting stats, flaming profiles,
    readability profiles, terrorist indicators...  Nah!! Just kidding on all
    those, but there are some stats; check em out.  :)
    They do a good job of following threads even when the subject changes.  So
    good, that those who subscribe to the digest (christlib-digest) and find a
    lot of interesting topics one day might want to switch to here to browse.
    If you are registered, you can post from here.
    The mail archived is from about 12/3/96 until now.  About a year and a
    quarter and almost 4000 messages.  They can add old mail in many formats.
    ANYBODY GOT MAIL ARCHIVES FOR 96 AND 95?  Can I hope for even 94?
    Based on cookie info they even have a personal"My Mail" page that displays
    your favorite lists and even shows how much mail has come in since you last
    looked at the list.  Great place for a bookmark.
    I still think there are places in free market Christlib pages for
    alternately displayed archives as well as safe rainy-day backups should
    FindMail fall apart.
    Mr. Dar Scott  +CL+     Albuquerque
    + Christlib list manager +
    Christlib: Topics Christian and libertarianism.
    To subscribe send mail with "subscribe christlib"
    in the body to <>.
    List information is available online: (archive)


    Jews for Jesus

    Institute for Christian Leadership

    Theology on the Web

    Big questions: "What does theocracy imply in general?" -- Dar Scott, Sat, 4 Jul 1998 "one might feel that a theocracy must be a hierocracy or that all states are technically hierocracies."

    Minnesota E-Democracy

    RonO (Ronald B. Oakes) Webmaster, Christian Fandom web pages ( and list owner/manager Christian Fandom mailing list (christian-fandom at

    "There are more free-market security guards than state police forces; more cases tried before free-market arbitrators than before state courts." --

    the Cato institue

    The CIA's World Fact Book search_tools.html#factbook

    New Country Foundation

    ??? American Freedom Network

    The Agnostic Church and has a "Agnostic Bible" by William A. Schultz (currently a Work In Progress, inviting feedback).

    Christian Book Distributors "put out a great catalog" -- recc. Hardrock Llewynyth Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997

    "The Right to Read" short story by Richard Stallman

    I've been told that "Digital Future Coalition wants to allow pirates to steal other people's work", which is the organization which fights against the "Creative Incentive Coalition wants to take away "Fair Use" rights, and to make it illegal for people or libraries to lend their books to others without making sure royalties are made to the original authors."

    Religion and the Internet A good, scholarly article on a subject that has had far too much hype recently. "Techno-Religious Developments"

    Did this really happen ? [FIXME: offline ?]

    Unoffical United Methodist Web Page

    The Bill of No Rights somewhat funny :-).

    Laissez Faire Books a bookstore focusing on pro-Libertarian books. claims to have "The World's Largest Selection of Books on Liberty". Books by David Friedman, P.J. O'Rourke, Ayn Rand, Robert Axelrod, Esther Dyson, Richard Dawkins, Jack London, Robert Heinlein, L. Neil Smith, etc.

    Christian SF and Fantasy Recommended Reading ???

    L. Neil Smith

    Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:17:44 -0600
    To: christlib at
    From: Dar Scott 
    Subject: Christlib: Day of Atonement (was Libertarian Christians?)
    John Fast wrote,
    >Seriously, though, I'd like to recommend J. Neil Schulman's story
    >"Day of Atonement," in _Free Space: The Libertarian SF Anthology_,
    >and also available on Neil's web site as part
    >of "Nasty, Brutish, and Short Stories."
    This is a self-referencial story--a terrorist's bomb thrown into the
    works--which at times leaves me baffled and at times reminds me of truths.

    all (?) presidential press releases since 1993-Jan have been archived a brief summary of the "Dark Ages" from 501 to 1449

    Unravelling Wittgenstein's Net-- A Christian ThinkTank Glenn Miller's apologetics web site

    Mike Hurley /* moving to ? */ mirrored at Go to his search engine and type "Third Temple Mount" for lots of info on the Temple Mount, the Dome of the Rock, the friction between Muslim and Jew at that site, the desire to build a Third Temple,

    National Association of Evangelicals

    GOSHEN Christian Search Engine and Directory

    Drug Enforcement Administration of the U.S. Department of Justice

    some arguments for the infallibility of the Bible

    Center for Scientific Creation

    Why Argue with Christian Pseudo-Science? by Doug Craigen, PhD (physics).
    "Entropy, God and Evolution" by Doug Craigen, PhD (physics) recommended by David Cary.

    World Evangelical Fellowship "the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church" ???

    Unravelling Wittgenstein's Net-- A Christian ThinkTank DAV: This seems pretty good. Doesn't take himself too seriously; starts out with the quote "Critically examine EVERYTHING. Hold on to the good.". Has 2 incomplete files that look most useful:

    "To sweeten poisoned wells" Adrian Lyons SJ reflects on the notion of faith

    Wendy McElroy's Site for Individualist Feminism, and Individualist Anarchism. ???

    "Politics is for the moment. An equation is for eternity." -- A. Einstein

    "It seems to me a fundamental economic problem is that in order for *me* to breathe cleaner air, *you* have to buy an electric vehicle. I wonder, therefore, whether the general market model is appropriate, when you talk about something where the person laying out the money isn't necessarily the beneficiary." -- Michael Reizenman, quoted in "EVs [electric vehicles]: the road ahead" article in _IEEE Spectrum_ 1998-12 p. 51

    "Democracy is ever eager for rapid progress, and the only progress which can be rapid is progress down hill." -- Sir James Jeans.

    more random links:

    Started 1998-03-07
    Original Author: David Cary.

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