ChristLib

updated 2005-11-29.

Contents:

latest information (related periodicals):

David also maintains related files:

ChristLib

ChristLib is the libertarian Christian mailing list.

This page is not the Official ChristLib Homepage, because there is no Official ChristLib Homepage. [ Bill Reveile http://reveile.org/christlib/ ] [ Previous ChristLib Page http://www.swcp.com/DarScott/CL/Christlib/ ][ Next ChristLib Page http://libertarian.faithweb.com/ ] [ The One After That: http://www.christlib.org/ (offline ?) ] . If you think you can make a better page than this, go for it -- and let me know so I can add you to the ring of ChristLib Pages:

list archives:

There is a fascinating mix of people on the list. There are libertarians who are not Christian (e.g., Jewish, athiest) and Christians who are not libertarian (e.g., Republican, Democratic, and the occasional anarchist). There's a few DNRC and Goth, but I'm still not certain if Dilbert's New Ruling Class (or the Goth culture) is more politics or religion, or something completely different. There are some people who claim it is impossible to be Christian and libertarian simultaneously. There are other people who claim that if one is "truly Christian", one will inevitably be led to something very close to the libertarian political viewpoint.

The people on ChristLib generally have a lot of sympathy for the underdog and alternative points of view. The people who claim that "One man *can* make a difference". The poor deluded fools :-P.

While religion and politics are often a volatile mix, the people on Christlib are surprisingly good at maintaining a sense of humor and balance while discussing God and Country.

I (David Cary) am human, therefore not merely opinionated and biased but often just plain wrong. Please tell me feedback.html how I could improve this page if you think the layout and the content could be improved, especially if something is misleading or (horrors!) actually in error.

"I am interested in how things really work, whether I like it or not." -- Dar Scott <dsc at swcp.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:38:14 -0600

Here's the general information for the list: 

[Last updated on: Mon Jan 19 18:02:30 1998]
Welcome to Christlib, the email list for the discussion of topics that are,
in some way, both Christian and libertarian.

Both libertarians and Christians are welcome and especially Christian
libertarians are welcome.

The list was created by Bruce Baugh, who managed it for over three years.
Bruce likened it to his living room and he expected his quests to treat
each other politely.

I intend to carry on that tradition.  Each subscriber is here as my guest
and I desire each one to feel comfortable on this list.  I encourage
subscribers to debate ideas as appropriate, but to never attack another
subscriber.  I (Dar Scott ) will normally send a gentle
warning at first but may have to boot repeat offenders.  (Should _I_ ever
be rude to a subscriber, please wake me up by sending me a note.)

What is Christian libertarianism?  Is it real?  Is it Biblical?  Many of us
have some opinions on this, of course, but this list as a discussion list
makes no assumptions.

You do not have to belong to any particular school of thought to belong to
this list and to be a participant.  And, though members of the list might
favor some school of thought, this list is not some hook for some
particular brand of Christian libertarianism.

I have found some friends on this list; you might find friends, also.

This list is open.  To join, simply send mail from your email address to
<majordomo@swcp.com> with this in the body:

subscribe christlib

As a member you can participate.  To send mail to everyone on the list,
send mail to <christlib@swcp.com>.  Or simply reply to mail from the list.

You can leave the list anytime.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
<majordomo@swcp.com> from your email address with this body:

unsubscribe christlib

Should you ever unsubscribe, I welcome comments on why.

There is no web-site for Christlib yet; hang onto this information.

God Bless,
Dar Scott =CL=
Christlib list manager

505/299-9497

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:27:44 -0700
To: christlib at swcp.com
From: Dar Scott 
Subject: Christlib: We're Transferred!!
Sender: owner-christlib at swcp.com

If I did everything right, then the list is transferred.

As you may have noticed in the "Welcome" message, the list policy is
basically the same.  The topic is that which has something to do with
libertarianism and with Christianity.  The mood is polite.

If I set this up right, replying to this message (or any other from the
list) will be sending a message to the list.

(Sorry about the double of the last message on the old list.  I think I
accidentally sent a message that included key words that triggered an
automatic approval requirement.  And then I was too impatient to wait for
Bruce's approval.)

You will receive a schedule by separate mail showing which weeks you are to
send chocolate to the list manager.  Just Kidding!  :)

Dar


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dar Scott  +CL+


+ Christlib list manager +
Christlib is the discussion list for topics
covering Christianity and libertarianism
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: "Bruce Baugh" 
To: <christlib at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: Christlib: Finding Christlib
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:08:46 -0800
Reply-To: christlib at swcp.com

From: Dar Scott 


>However, at this time, I do not have an official Christlib page.


Obviously we need a free and competitive market in Christlib pages.

Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:23:43 -0700
To: christlib at swcp.com
From: Dar Scott <dsc at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: Christlib: Finding Christlib

Bruce Baugh wrote,
>>However, at this time, I do not have an official Christlib page.
>Obviously we need a free and competitive market in Christlib pages.

That's a great idea!

(Psst!!  Bruce!  What if they want a share of the chocolate?)

Attention everybody making Christlib pages!  You'll get your chocolate in
heaven!!

Dar

Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 21:15:42 -0700
To: christlib at swcp.com
From: Dar Scott <dsc at swcp.com>
Subject: Christlib: List Subject Policy

For the most part, there are no taboo subjects.  In particular,
homosexuality and abortion are NOT taboo topics.

Some topics are just plain off subject, but brief excursions into these are
OK.  A lot of these are great fun.

Some topics, by nature, are generally offensive and thus prohibited, even
if one makes an excuse to applicability to the list topics.

Hammer home those ideas of yours, but please do not attack others on the
list.  Please show general consideration.  As part of this general
consideration, please avoid offensive language.  Overall, remember others
are fellow guests in my living room.

If I feel I need to, I will squelch any topic.  I don't think this will be
needed too often; those who come visit will tend to be those who use
self-control and are learning self-government.

Here are some ideas to consider when framing mail, especially mail on
sensitive subjects.  Take care to criticize ideas, not the person you are
debating with.  Keep a thick skin, even when some ideas seem to hit home.
Avoid making pot-shots.  Avoid introducing sensitive subjects when a
sensitive debate is already in progress.  Review the subject line for
sensitive subjects; some people might want to avoid them.  Show leadership
in how you compose mail during sensitive debates.  If someone has to bow
out of a debate, remember this person may have had to leave before
completely communicating his ideas.  Be patient with those who take the
time to advise a newbie or an old friend in these things.  Sometimes a
topic has been beaten into the ground and should get a rest.  Be patient
with the list manager; God is still building him.

OK!!  Go for it!  Have fun!  E-sodas are in the E-fridge!

Dar




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dar Scott  +CL+
Albuquerque
dsc at swcp.com

+ Christlib list manager +
Christlib is the discussion list for topics
covering Christianity and libertarianism
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:01:02 -0700
To: christlib at swcp.com
From: Dar Scott <dsc at swcp.com>
Subject: Christlib: List Diversity

Some of you may have noticed a slightly rough spot in the "Faith"
discussion.  Overall, I am pleased at how this did not escalate and how the
discussion repaired itself. Of course, it may seem more damaging to those
actually involved.  Everybody is in A-OK status as list participants.
Everybody involved seems to care about the list.

Some questions came up and some may have been implied that I'll address
with some comments on list diversity.  Christlib is diverse in subscribers,
discussion styles and discussion topics.

Christlib is open to those not Christian and those not libertarian.  In
particular, there are atheists on the list.  Though the list is a dear
place for Christian libertarian fellowship, it is not closed to only CLs.
(This avoids the question of who is qualified, and also keeps CLs from
getting brain flabby.)  There might be those on the list who are neither
Christian nor libertarian, but I have no idea why they are not bored with
the discussion.  My mentioning the diversity does not mean that certain
subjects should be avoided or that subjects of primary interest to a
particular group need elaborate qualification.  I just wish to arm you in
keeping your discussion polite.

Writing styles are diverse and this may require some patience.  Some people
are just different from you and some of us are still abecedarians in
forming ideas and writing about them.  Just because someone quotes
scripture does not mean he is quoting it AT you as one might throw bricks.
Just because one says he does not understand what you wrote does not mean
he is calling you a snob or is complaining about your use of topic jargon.
Just because some discussion seems to be intramural among CLs does not mean
you are being shunted out.  And if one makes a technical error about some
group, it does not mean that he feels the truth about that group is
unimportant.  You are always free to ask for clarification or to ignore the
vein.

A wide range of topics are appropriate for the list.  They just need to
somehow apply to both Christianity and libertarianism.  However, excursions
outside this into areas of Christianity or libertarianism are just fine and
even needed.  I think it puts a damper on discussion to know there is a
cliff one might fall over.  And a lot of these diversions are fun.  And a
loop outside of scope often brings the topic to a point ON-topic that might
not otherwise come up.  Also, for me, I find I very much value the opinions
of those on this list and how else can one get them on a slightly off-topic
question except to ask?

Back to the show currently in progress...

Dar Scott
List Mom





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dar Scott  +CL+
Albuquerque
dsc at swcp.com

+ Christlib list manager +
Christlib is the discussion list for topics
covering Christianity and libertarianism
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

interesting people

Interesting people who are not on ChristLib yet (but we wish they were !) include, but are not limited to, in random order, [FIXME: how should I organize this ?]

books

In 1998-08-31, Dar Scott proposed a reading schedule so that we could intelligently discuss these books while they were fresh in our minds. I guess it was a slow month and Dar wanted to stir up some controversy ^H^H^H^H^H intelligent discussion.

I thought his 2 track idea, "Bible" and "non-Bible", was pretty clever. His initial suggestions were

Others suggested that these books were also somehow related to "Christian and libertarian" topics. [Please post to the list any suggestions you might have; please email me if I've missed suggestions that have been posted]

Home pages of some of the listmembers

If you are not listed and you want to be, or you are listed but you don't want to be, send me email d.cary@ieee.org. and I'll try to straighten things out ASAP.

slavery and its abolition

immigration

Technocracy

technology and politics

religion and technology

urban legend

urban legends somehow related to "Christianity and libertarianism".

π (pi)

pi and the Bible

The bill to define pi as 3.0 http://www.primenet.com/~heuvelc/bible/pi.htm is a "Net Hoax on Pi Just Won't Die" http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctc676.htm .

``The Bible and Pi'' article by Michael A. B. Deakin and Hans Lausch, in _The Mathematical Gazette_ July 1998 Volume 82 Number 494 http://www.m-a.org.uk/eb/mg/mg082bb.pdf claims that one could take the original text and derive the value 3*(111/106) which is close to the true value of pi. It also points out that 355/113 is a far more accurate approximation to pi.

other π stuff

The mathematical constant known as π (pi). pi (See si_metric_faq.html#micro for the Greek letter π )

*converging* formulas for π: rather than going summing up a bunch of terms (*all* of which must be calculated to the desired precision), what sorts of formulas can take a (noisy) *approximation* of π and give a *better* approximation of π ? (... perhaps expand to allow *2* numbers, one converging on π, the other converging on some other arbitrary constant, and allow 2 functions to update both).

  • Does Archimede's formula converge if a bit of error gets mixed in near the beginning ? No, it doesn't look like it.
  • π_{n+1} = Ln( 20 + π_{n} ) converges on 3.1416333 (adapted from Simon Plouffe http://pi.lacim.uqam.ca/eng/approximations_en.html )
  • (J. Munkhammer, 2000 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiFormulas.html )
  • Starting with any approximation of π:

    a(k+1) = a(k) + sin(a(k)) ; starting with a(0) anywhere near π, perhaps a(0) = 22/7.
    a(k+1) = a(k) - tan(a(k)) ; starting with a(0) anywhere near π, perhaps a(0) = 22/7.

    "the rate of convergence is now cubic (the number of digits is tripled at each iteration). ... The major drawback of those algorithms is to evaluate sine or tangent function at a given accuracy which is not so easy."

    -- http://numbers.computation.free.fr/Constants/Pi/iterativePi.html

    (DAV: remember ... sin[x] = x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - x^7/7! + +x^8/8! ... Sum{ n=0; &inf;; (-1)^n * x^(2*n+1) /( 2*n+1 )! } )

    DAV: I have generalized this to any arbitrary angle ... In addition to the sin() and tan() equations above, I find

    a_k+1 = a_k + cos( a_k ) ; converges on π/2

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 2*sin(a_k) - sqrt(3) ) ; converges on π/3

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 1 - 2*cos( a_k ) )/sqrt(3) ; converges on π/3

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( tan( a_k ) - sqrt(3) )/4 ; converges on π/3

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( sqrt(2)*sin( a_k ) - 1 ) ; converges on π/4

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 1 - sqrt(2)*cos( a_k ) ) ; converges on π/4

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( tan( a_k) - 1 )/2 ; converges on π/4

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( 2*sin( a_k ) - 1 )/sqrt(3) ; converges on π/6

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( sqrt(3) - 2*cos( a_k ) ) ; converges on π/6

    a_k+1 = a_k - ( tan( a_k ) - 1/sqrt(3) )*(3/4) ; converges on π/6

    These equations all come from the basic formula

    a_k+1 = a_k - ε.

    Near some arbitrary angle θ, in particular at the angle a_k = ( θ + ε ), the series expansions for sin( θ + ε ), cos( θ + ε ), tan( θ + ε ) (should I try other functions like 1/cos(), 1/sin(), 1/tan() ?) give us the approximations

    ε =~= ( sin( θ + ε ) - sin( θ ) )/ cos( θ ) ε =~= ( cos( θ ) - cos( θ + &epsilon ) )/sin( θ ) ε =~= ( tan( θ + &epsilon ) - tan( θ ) )*( cos( θ ) )^2.

    Then I just pick θ to make these formulas come out nice.

    A cubically converging algorithm which converges to the nearest multiple of π to f_0 is the simple iteration

    f_{n+1} = f_n + sin( f_n )

    (Beeler et al. 1972). For example, applying to 23 gives the sequence 23, 22.1537796, 21.99186453, 21.99114858, ..., which converges to 7π ~=~ 21.99114858.

    -- http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiIterations.html

  • Other converging formulas:

    The π expert is, of course, the famous Eve Astrid Andersson http://eveander.com/ /* was http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~eveander/ */ .

    More than you ever wanted to know about pi: http://3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097.org/ .

    Re: Converting Pi to binary (DON'T DO IT!) http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/humor/pi.html

    "For this particular planet, construct a perfect circle with a radius of 2075 miles, and measure the circumference. You will find that pi = 3.0." -- Dave Fischer, (Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95) (Newsgroups: sci.physics)

    Other hoaxes

    Other hoaxes: periodical.html#anti_chain_letter

    the "cultist" urban legend

    The quote below is merely a urban legend. 

    From: "John Fast" <jfast at fastindustries.com>
To: christlib at swcp.com
Subject: Christlib: web: Is Janet Reno a Cultist?
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:29:10 -0400


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Babbitt <dave at Babbitt.org>
To: christlib@swcp.com
Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Christlib: Fwd: Are you a cultist?


>Not to quench the spirit of anti-christian bigotry that Janet Reno is
>trying to develop here, but a cultist can be either religious or political
>and are defined by there practice of twisting the definitions of words to
>the point of equivication.
>
>>
>>MEMORABLE QUOTES:
>>
>>"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and
>>the Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible
>>studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a
>>Christian cause; who home schools for their children; who
>>has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in
>>the second amendment; and who distrusts big government.
>>Any of these may qualify [a person as a cultist] but
>>certainly  more than one [of these] would cause us to look
>>at this person as a threat, and his family as being in a
>>risk situation that qualified for government interference."
>>
>>--Attorney General Janet Reno, Interview on 60 Minutes,
>>  June 26, 1994 (quote reprinted from the May/June issue
>>  of the Arizona Home Education Journal)
>>
>>--------- End forwarded message ----------
>>
>>_____________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>
>Dave Babbitt
>
>Check out http://www.babbitt.org/
>
>
>




From: "John Fast" 
To: , , 
Subject: Re: Calumny of Janet Reno (was Christlib: Fwd: Are you a cultist?)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:22:48 -0400

Marshall Fritz  wrote:
>John...
>
>This is a false quote. It is calumny
>to spread it around. She did not
>say this. She was not on 60 Minutes
>on that day.

Ouch!!  Thanks!!
>
>Please advise each person to whom you
>have sent this that you have heard a
>warning of its falseness, and
>encourage them to stop
>spreading this unless
>they get solid con-
>firmation. (Which
>they will not
>find. Only
>other
>copies of the same thing, none of which
>are
>really documented, they just look that
>way.
>
Yes, definitely!  Thanks again!


[snip]
>Pith:  I didn't give them hell. I just
>told them the truth and they thought it
>was hell.
>            Harry S Truman

And, unfortunately, we must stick to the
truth, even when it's unpleasant as hell. :-(

Still, I'm sure there are enough true
unpleasant things to say about Ms. Reno;
certainly her performance as a U.S. Attorney
here in Florida was disgusting, especially
the "Country Walk" false child-abuse
prosecutions!
--
 John Fast
 jfast at fastindustries.com  or  caliban at gate.net
 ENTJ/1
 "Raise consciousness, not taxes."


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:49:41 -0400
From: "Doug Snead" 
To: christlib@swcp.com
Subject: Re: Calumny of Janet Reno (was Christlib: Fwd: Are you a cultist?)

John Fast wrote:
> Marshall Fritz  wrote:
> >John...
> >This is a false quote. It is calumny
> >to spread it around. She did not
> >say this. She was not on 60 Minutes
> >on that day.
> Ouch!!  Thanks!!
[ ... snip ...]

I'm not so sure that the Justive Department denials are completely
believeable.  For many, the issue is not yet settled.

  For example, see http://www.tex-is.net/users/csbrocato/cultist.htm

   "Several individuals who called 60 Minutes to obtain a copy of
   the Reno interview were told that 60 Minutes had never done an
   interview with Janet Reno. One gentleman reported to us that
   when he contacted a company that sells video copies of 60 Minutes
   and other news shows, they became very "heated" after the
   requested June 26,1994 show."

What I am saying is that I believe the denials even less that I do the
reality of that quote.   For many people, the case is *far* from closed.

- Doug

[ a word from Reno to your kids:
   http://www.usdoj.gov/kidspage/bias-k-5/home_intro.htm ]


From: "Keith A. Keller" 
Subject: Christlib: Janet Reno
To: christlib@swcp.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:13:22 -0400 (EDT)

According to Allen J. Newton:
>
> Didn't Janet Reno define a "Dangerous Religious Fanatic" a few years ago
> as anyone who owns a gun and believes that the Bible is the Word of God?
>

We discussed this on the list several months ago, and, if I
recall correctly, came to the conclusion that that quote could
not be confirmed.

Someone posted a URL linking to a web page looking into the
matter and trying to get a copy of the televised interview in
which she allegedly said that.  But "60 Minutes" denied that
she ever said such a thing in an interview with them, and
wasn't even in the episode which was broadcast on the date in
question.

--
Keith Keller I  <kak4b at unix.mail.virginia.edu>

The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water
and breeds Reptiles of the Mind.
	--William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"

    related links:

    alternative voting systems

    Some pointers to alternative voting systems

    [FIXME: where did I put that info ?]

    Arrow's theorem ...

    Arrow impossibility theorem

    [FIXME: get better definition][arrow]

    taxes

    not-so-common terms

    http://www.wordsmith.org/words/

    "Christian libertarian"
    "One who is libertarian and is Christian and nothing more." -- [Hardrock ?] "there is a major and important subset of people who are Christian libertarians who find their thinking integrated in special ways." -- Dar Scott
    Nation vs. State
    http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042798.htm
    WSPQ: World's Smallest Political Quiz
    http://self-gov.org/wspq.html | http://self-gov.org/quiz.html | http://self-gov.org/bradley-quiz.shtml [offline ?] is a clever little idea that fits on a business card.

    Take the World's Smallest Political Quiz

    ``Libertarians thus have a big stake in seeing a more accurate map accepted. But that doesn't mean the map is therefore inaccurate.'' DAV is fascinated by ``maps'' 3d_design.html#maps that let you see things more accurately. I find it amazing and counter-intuitive that most people (including myself), when confronted by a map that is truly more accurate than ones they've seen before, instantly feel that this ``new'' map is inaccurate, suspect, some sort of trick, etc. Why is this ? And what can cartographers do to indicate uncertainty and to guide people towards more appropriate maps ?

    ... seems similar to "The Political Compass" http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/ ... see also "The Lipson-Shiu Corporate Type Test" mad_science.html#lipson-shiu and MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator) book.html#mbti

    "problem"
    opportunity for growth.
    "failure"
    a learning experience.
    the Ionian Enchantment
    "a belief in the unity of the sciences -- a conviction, far deeper than a mere working proposition, that the world is orderly and can be explained by a small number of natural laws. ... Its roots go back to Thales of Miletus, in Ionia, in the sixth century b.c. ... has dominated scientific thought ever since. " -- Edward O. Wilson (paraphrasing Gerald Holton) http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.cgi?0-679-76867-X
    iconoclast
    (1) One who attacks and seeks to overthrow traditional or popular ideas or institutions.
    (2) One who destroys sacred religious images.
    Hoplophobe
    from the Greek hoplon = tool or weapon + phobe = fear.
    libertarian (as opposed to Libertarian)
    [???]
    Libertarian (as opposed to libertarian)
    [???]
    anarchy
    "Anarchy is the *absence* of criminal activity." -- Randall R Randall (rrandall6 at juno.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998
    anarchy
    [???]
    Let's let the anarchists themselves tell us what they are about:
    Anarchism . Web Site http://anarchism.ws/
    An Anarchist FAQ http://flag.blackened.net/intanark/faq/ (obviously there can be no "official" anarchist FAQ)
    minarchist 
    Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:46:52 -0600
To: christlib at swcp.com
From: Dar Scott <dsc at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: Christlib: What is defense?

Hardrock wrote,
...
>min(im)-		least, smallest, least quantity, very small
>			(L. minimus)
>
>arch(y)			government, rule (Gk. archia)
>
>-ist			one who performs a (specified) action; one who
>			makes or produces; one who plays or operates a
>			specified instrument or contrivance; one who
>			specializes in a (specified) art or science or
>			skill; one who advocates or adheres to a doctrine
>			or system or code of behaviour, or that of a
>			(specified) individual (Gk. istes)
>
>so, using the basic rules of lexicography, and not filtering through any
>particular agenda, the correct, in context definition of "minarchy" is
>"one who advocates very small, or the least quantity of, government".

I think that is the first parsing that Randall give.  He used the word
"state" instead of "government."

Is this lexicography or morphology?  In either case, it is not always clear
concerning the order of combining morphemes.  Consider "biweekly."

In context, it may well be that the second (no doubt, tongue-in-cheek)
parsing has some merit.  Sigh.


>> Sir, if you do not say what you mean, how
>> am I to understand you?  I can only assume
>> that you think carefully about what you type.
>
>an assumption which is rarely justified.

This may well be our best first assumption in discussion.

On the other hand, just because someone slips and exposes himself, is no
reason to let go with a ten page message destroying that person or that
misstated idea.  I think I may be tempted in this area; perhaps it is an
indication of low self-esteeme when one has to blast away at errors that
might be easily rectified quickly.

On Christlib, it is not a matter of gaining points by machine-gunning
exposed parts of other high scorers.  We work together to build ideas.

THEN WE SHOOT DOWN THE IDEAS!!   Aaaa Ha Ha Ha!!!!

...

Dar Scott
    ??? 
    Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 09:06:30 -0700
To: christlib@swcp.com
From: Bill Reveile <mvv at wco.com>
Subject: Re: Christlib: What is defense?

At 01:33 AM 1998/07/03 -0700, you wrote:
>
>to me, i see a minimum based on harm done.  possibly with a punitive
>amount of some sort.  additional punishents based on demonstrated intent.
>perhaps with the assumption that intent to harm is present.
>

I have never been able to find a basis for punishment of humans by other
humans.  Just like I have never been able to justify reparations based on
intent.  Harm done, however, does include all expenses incurred by anyone
involved in the investigation, apprehension, pretrial incarceration, trial
and subsequent incarceration, and monitoring of reparations connected to
the crime.

>> You see, I would allow the victim to lessen
>> the criminal's punishment, but not the judge
>> or the jury (if any).  Any other punishments

If the victim or anyone else chooses to absorb some of the damages based on
lack of intent that is their choice.  A judgement of intent would also be
helpful to determine the percentage of responsibility but never to
calculate punitive damages.

>the jury would exist to determine intent from available evidence; pretty
>much for additional punishments to the perpetrator, as i listed before.

The plaintiff and defendant would arrive on an agreement of how a trial
would proceed.  This would decide whether or not it would be a volunteer or
paid jury, a judge, an arbitrator, an unsupervised negotiation or
flintlocks at twenty paces.

"Defense" is the act of countering in kind any initiation of force to
protect oneself or certain others from harm.

"In kind" means using enough force to stop the unwanted action but not
enough to cause unnecessary harm to the initiator of that unwanted action.

"Force" means to cause another to change their just behavior against their
will.

"Just behavior" is behavior in which all can engage without violating the
equal rights of others.

"Rights" are claims to which one can reasonably expect all others to yield
based on a consensus that all people have equal opportunity to make the
same claims.

"Claim"
"Opportunity"
"Reasonable"
"Consensus"
"People
"equal"
"violating"
"unnecessary"
"countering"
"initiation"
"certain others"

I'll have to get back to you later on these.
    -- Bill Reveile Scarecrow Logic http://www.wco.com/~mvv/sln
    ???
    ??? Christlib ??? http://www.rmi.net/~aarmstro/ariweb/ari.html [FIXME:]
    libertopia
    [???]
    minarchy
    [???]
    theocracy
    "government of a state by immediate divine guidance"; "rule by God". We reserve _theocracy_ to mean "rule by God" in writing, but some readers may think this means some elite deciding what God says (a hierocracy). To reduce misinterpretation, we might say "theocracy, reign of God," or similar introductory phrases.

    "If we are looking through our "stateness" meter or some like limited view, God's speakng directly to individuals is indistiguishable from anarchy. But, if God is consistent in what He is saying to people (an assumption I'll accept), then one would see an emergent pattern of behavior in an theocracy that would not develop in [a non-theocratic] anarchy. ... So, I think the same society can be called an anarchy and a theocracy at the same time. I think the Bible does that with the time of the Judges. "

    -- Dar Scott , Fri, 3 Jul 1998
    hierocracy
    "The rule of priests or religious dignitaries; government by priests or ecclesiastics." (OED)
    theonomous
    governed by God
    Looneytarianism
    "A Looneytarian is someone who believes that liberty implies libertinism and license, such as with the absurd proposition that your neighbor is perfectly free to keep a nuclear weapon in his basement if he wants." -- "R. Knauer-AIMNET" 1998-06-29
    Reconstructionists
    Short for "Christian Reconstructionists" (CR).
    the War Of Northern Aggression
    What the gentleman from Texas calls the Civil War of the United States of America.
    TransLibertarianism:
    To strive for increased personal freedom, freedom from death, freedom from ignorance, freedom from our heirachical structures, freedom from our genetic limitations, freedom from missguided attempts to repress, cajole, tax, or otherwise limit our self expression, exploration, or modification, freedom from the bonds of planet Earth and its solar system.
    -- Mike Lorrey , 1996-07-04, posted to Transhuman Mailing List
    plutocracy
    from ploutos (wealth) + kratein (to rule). government by the wealthy.
    ``liberal''
    One who claims to be liberal. OR
    One who forces other people to spend their money the ``right'' way. (typically by collecting taxes and sending them to the ``right'' other people).
    http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=liberal&SearchType=AND&version=KJV
    ``conservative''
    One who claims to be conservative. OR
    One who forces other people to act the ``right'' way. (Typically by jail terms mandated by new laws related to the military draft, the war on drugs, inappropriate ``speech'', etc.)
    ornithocracy
    from ornith (bird) + kratia (government). "As a democrat, I believed that government was for the people, but living in Washington [DC] has turned me into an ornithocrat." -- from http://www.moonmac.com/~mklprc/Improve_Vocab.html
    PIG
    Person In Government
    utopia
    [???]

    Any other words I should list here ? In particular, I want

    and, of course their definition(s).

    humor 

    
From: "John Fast" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Christlib: New Christlib Catalog
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:33:29 -0500

The Christlib[tm] merchandising department wrote:


>CHRISTLIB CATALOG SALES
>
>Proud to me subscribed to Christlib?  Now you can show it!!
>Special items available today only!!
>
>=== Jewelry ===
>
> ChristLib Nose Ring.  Spells out Christlib.   $55
> CL Tongue Pin.  Interlocking CL design.       $45
> Fish Anarchy Lip Pin.  Unique!!               $45


They apparently forgot:

_Libere_ Crucifix (diagonal arrow behind cross).
Let 'em know Our Lord was a political non-Euclidean.  $55

Nolan Chart Crucifix.    $65

14K Rosary    $25
>
>=== Sweaters and T-shirts ===
>Sizes:  XL, XXL, XXXL and XXXXL
>Based on the famous Christlib cartoons!!
>
> Yackity-Yak!! (black or white) T $20 Sweatshirt $30
> Bruce's Living Room (red or white) T $25 Sweatshirt $40
> Pretty Good Commission (white only) T $20   Sweatshirt $30
> How a Statist Sees Rapture (red only) T $20   Sweatshirt $30
> TEAM CHRISTLIB (black, red or white) T $25   Sweatshirt $40

He Didn't Die for the State (red or black) T $20  Sweatshirt $30

My Church Isn't BATF-Approved (white or black) T $20 Sweatshirt $30

Free Thought, Free Will, Free Men (black or white) T $20
Sweatshirt $30.  (autographed, white only, add $10)

St. Clive (red, white, or black) T $30  Sweatshirt $45
(autographed, red or white, add $10)

All Men Are Created Equal Except One (black or white) T $20  Sweatshirt $30

Render Unto Washington (red or black)  T $25  Sweatshirt $35

Atlas Shrugged, Jesus Wept (black or white)  T $25  Sweatshirt $35

Pulp Scripture (red or black)  T $30  Sweatshirt $40
Pulp Scripture limited edition (gold leaf, signed and numbered)  T $50
Sweatshirt $60

Soul in Training/Property of God's Gym (white or black)  T $25  Sweatshirt
$35
>
>=== St. Bruce Keepsakes ===
>
> Sliver from the wooden handle of the lawn rake
> he left behind in Portland.  Comes with certificate.
> Only 400 pieces. $100
>
> Copy of the first game St. Bruce ever wrote.  Make
> C's and L's chase other letters around a maze.
> CPM (8" floppy) $125
> DOS (5.25" floppy) $105
>
>All profits go to sending chocolate to the list mom and to builders of
>Christlib web pages.


    From: "Christlib Catalog Sales" 
To: <christlib at swcp.com>
Subject: Christlib: New Christlib Catalog
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:26:24 -0300
Sender: owner-christlib@swcp.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: christlib@swcp.com

CHRISTLIB CATALOG SALES

Proud to me subscribed to Christlib?  Now you can show it!!
Special items available today only!!

=== Jewelry ===

	ChristLib Nose Ring.  Spells out Christlib.   $55
	CL Tongue Pin.  Interlocking CL design.       $45
	Fish Anarchy Lip Pin.  Unique!!               $45

=== Sweaters and T-shirts ===
Sizes:  XL, XXL, XXXL and XXXXL
Based on the famous Christlib cartoons!!

	Yackity-Yak!!	(black or white)	T $20	Sweatshirt $30
	Bruce's Living Room (red or white)	T $25	Sweatshirt $40
	Pretty Good Commission (white only)	T $20   Sweatshirt $30
	How a Statist Sees Rapture (red only)	T $20   Sweatshirt $30
	TEAM CHRISTLIB (black, red or white)	T $25   Sweatshirt $40

=== St. Bruce Keepsakes ===

	Sliver from the wooden handle of the lawn rake
	he left behind in Portland.  Comes with certificate.
	Only 400 pieces.			$100

	Copy of the first game St. Bruce ever wrote.  Make
	C's and L's chase other letters around a maze.
	CPM (8" floppy) 			$125
	DOS (5.25" floppy)			$105

All profits go to sending chocolate to the list mom and to builders of
Christlib web pages.

    From: "Bruce Baugh" 
To: <christlib at swcp.com>
Subject: RE: Christlib: New Christlib Catalog
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:20:11 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Reply-To: christlib at swcp.com

<snip>

Color me _vastly_ amused.

--
Bruce Baugh

http://brucebaugh.home.mindspring.com/

    the beginning

    the end

    Kevin Mitnick

    We've been spending all too much time discussing Kevin Mitnick, "America's Most Wanted Computer Outlaw".

    David Brin

    David Brin

    Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson

    Donald Knuth

    Donald Knuth [FIXME: move Knuth info from elsewhere to here]

    Joe Wright

    Rev. Joe Wright gave a widely-quoted prayer before the House of Representatives of the Kansas Legislature on January 23, 1996. (I got these links from a internet search for ``prayer "joe wright" kansas''.

    [FIXME: reduce to just 3 or so links]

    ``a government that's big enough...''

    ``a government that's big enough...''

    related to "Ask for what you really want" creed.html#really_want .

    U.S. Constitution

    The U.S. Constitution and other historical documents.

    other historic documents

    Geneva convention

    Geneva convention

    monks online

    monks

    the Crusades

    All too often, I hear that "religion" is, like, you know, "bad", because of, you know, "the Crusades, the Inquisition, and stuff.". I'm looking for some good references to the actual facts of the matter.